<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Another thing I meant to say in this message about ABBR and ACRONYM is that for the example Leif gave, the HTML5 recommendation (and any other recommendation where it's relevant) should be pushing UAs to include such dictionaries to get the pronunciation of acronyms right (even when not marked up). The other thing that occurs to me after Leif raises the issue again is that a dramatic step that might drive home the point that authors should only markup abbreviations and acronyms in exceptional circumstances would be to deprecate both elements (ABBR and ACRONYM) and advise authors to use DFN for marking up the defining instance of any term, including exceptional abbreviations or acronyms requiring such definition.<div><br></div><div>Take care,</div><div>Rob<br><div><br><html>Begin forwarded message:</html><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" color="#000000" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica; color: #000000"><b>From: </b></font><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">Robert J Burns <<a href="mailto:rob@robburns.com">rob@robburns.com</a>></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" color="#000000" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica; color: #000000"><b>Date: </b></font><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">April 24, 2008 12:25:45 PM GMT+02:00</font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" color="#000000" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica; color: #000000"><b>To: </b></font><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">HTML4All <<a href="mailto:list@html4all.org">list@html4all.org</a>></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" color="#000000" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica; color: #000000"><b>Subject: </b></font><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica"><b>Re: [html4all] ACRONYM and ABBR</b></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font face="Helvetica" size="3" color="#000000" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica; color: #000000"><b>Reply-To: </b></font><font face="Helvetica" size="3" style="font: 12.0px Helvetica">HTML4All <<a href="mailto:list@html4all.org">list@html4all.org</a>></font></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div> </div><br>On Apr 24, 2008, at 7:08 AM, Leif Halvard Silli wrote:<br><blockquote type="cite">One view is that no @title means that the abbreviaiton is an <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">acronym. [1]<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">However, when I tested VoiceOver and Fire Vox, it turned out that<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">ACRONYM and ABBR elements were read the same way. Thus, NATO was read<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Enn,Ay,Tee,Oh.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Which leads me to assume that acronyms are not read as acronyms <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">anyhow,<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">and thus AT users are happy with acronyms being marked up as ABBR. <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Right?<br></blockquote><br>Something like NATO should be pronounced by AT as "Nay - tow" whether <br>or not it is marked up with ABBR of ACRONYM. Pronunciations like that <br>should be drawn from a pronunciation dictionary for the product (in <br>the same way word processors have spelling dictionaries). ABBR should <br>be reserved for either abbreviations not widely used or newly coined <br>abbreviations. In such cases more information than simply pronouncing <br>it as a word is needed (is "Nah - two" or "Nat - oh" or "Nay - toe", <br>etc.). The wiki proposal I drafted with the cooperation of others <br>provides the needed hooks for that[1]<br><br><br>On Apr 24, 2008, at 10:23 AM, Joshue O Connor wrote:<br><br><blockquote type="cite">Leif Halvard Silli wrote:<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Jason White 24-04-2008 06:06:<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">[...]<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">It would be better to have only one element, as then the <br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">interminable<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">disagreements and confusions surrounding the acronym/abbreviation <br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">distinction<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">are eliminated.<br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">True.<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">Agreed. However, If support was better for <acronym> then I think it <br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">is<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">a fine useful element.<br></blockquote><br>I think the problem Jason refers to here is not related to support for <br>ACRONYM. They problem is that the distinction between acronyms and <br>abbreviations is not great enough to warrant separate elements. It <br>would be better to simply markup unusual abbreviated forms and then <br>provide pronunciation hints which is the only significant semantic <br>distinction an author wants to make here.<br><br><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Which leads me to assume that acronyms are not read as acronyms <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">anyhow,<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">and thus AT users are happy with acronyms being marked up as ABBR. <br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><blockquote type="cite">Right?<br></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite">I think so. It is mostly nerds who get in a flap about such things.<br></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><br></blockquote><br>Agreed, which is why I don't think we need to continue having separate <br>elements.<br><br>Take care,<br>Rob<br><br>[1]: <<a href="http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/DefiningTermsEtc">http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/DefiningTermsEtc</a>><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>List_HTML4all.org mailing list<br><a href="http://www.html4all.org/wiki">http://www.html4all.org/wiki</a><br></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>